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http://www.medicalne...cles/174514.php
basically, the law says that organ donors will have priority over non-donors to receive organs. obviously, frum groups are upset about this. your thoughts?
New Law for Organs in Israel
MultiQuote #2 
Sweet 
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 12:22 PM
Snag, on 15 March 2010 - 01:17 PM, said:
http://www.medicalne...cles/174514.php
basically, the law says that organ donors will have priority over non-donors to receive organs. obviously, frum groups are upset about this. your thoughts?
basically, the law says that organ donors will have priority over non-donors to receive organs. obviously, frum groups are upset about this. your thoughts?
I was gratified to read somewhere that the head of Zaka has a donor card. I'm torn about the implications of using non-medical criteria, but this was a good non-medical criterion to choose.
I would be even happier (for personal reasons) if there was an opt-out policy in America.
Very clever, these Jews.--- melech
#3
Melech
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 01:02 PM
Snag, on 15 March 2010 - 01:17 PM, said:
http://www.medicalne...cles/174514.php
basically, the law says that organ donors will have priority over non-donors to receive organs. obviously, frum groups are upset about this. your thoughts?
basically, the law says that organ donors will have priority over non-donors to receive organs. obviously, frum groups are upset about this. your thoughts?
That is so interesting.
#4
happyduck1979
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 01:11 PM
There is a halachik organ donor's card here so a lot of the issues that are common concerns are dealt with. I think (I have not read it too carefully) that those who sign it can only have their organs go to relatively halachically approved sneeders- immidiate use, not just for study, etc. This is to be included in the those who donate section of the law.
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New Site. New Stuff. New Sales. Swirsky Designs
Check out my LJ, updated fairly regularly Here yes you need to be friended to see most of it.
Our Aliya Blog Lots of pictures.
A blog about plus size fashion outside the USA
Yes, still another blog. This one is about quick kosher cooking and is more like my personal recipe box
Coming soon. A blog to keep track of my other blogs.
#5
teddydouglas
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 01:24 PM
If the law produces more organs as intended, even non-signers with lower priority ultimately benefit.
Interesting that the authors chose to get involved in the religious arguments, saying that those whose moral or religious beliefs prohibit donation should also prohibit receipt of a donated organ.
Interesting that the authors chose to get involved in the religious arguments, saying that those whose moral or religious beliefs prohibit donation should also prohibit receipt of a donated organ.
I noticed H.com saves space for my sig, so I may as well use it.
QUOTE
Yet each man kills the thing he loves,
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word.
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!
-Oscar Wilde
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word.
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!
#6
Snag
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 01:37 PM
teddydouglas, on 15 March 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:
Interesting that the authors chose to get involved in the religious arguments, saying that those whose moral or religious beliefs prohibit donation should also prohibit receipt of a donated organ.
their moralistic argument is based on faulty data - the primary orthodox objection to organ donation (afaik) is that halacha and secular law diverge on what is considered "death", thus standard organ donation according to many poskim involves murder. therefore, one's objection to allowing oneself to be murdered should not logically preclude one benefiting from another who has no such qualms.
"the title "genius" is acquired by many, the same way an insect gets called a centipede; not because it has 100 legs, but because the masses can't be bothered to count past 14."
#7 
cynic
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 02:25 PM
Doesn't the Gemarah rule that brain death is the criteria for determining death? Also, AFAIK, RSZA ruled that brain death is death, until he was told to rule otherwise.
...a Beis Yaakov education is like fabric softener for the brain. -Grend123
How much money did your gadol get from EJF/Tom Kaplan?
"On a letter that my rabbis are signed on to, I also sign." R' Chaim Kanievsky
How much money did your gadol get from EJF/Tom Kaplan?
"On a letter that my rabbis are signed on to, I also sign." R' Chaim Kanievsky
#8
teddydouglas
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 02:31 PM
Snag, on 15 March 2010 - 02:37 PM, said:
their moralistic argument is based on faulty data - the primary orthodox objection to organ donation (afaik) is that halacha and secular law diverge on what is considered "death", thus standard organ donation according to many poskim involves murder. therefore, one's objection to allowing oneself to be murdered should not logically preclude one benefiting from another who has no such qualms.
Put it that way, and agreeing to accept an organ is basically requisitioning a murder.
Also, is there no way to agree to organ donation but tell them to wait until you are really dead?
I noticed H.com saves space for my sig, so I may as well use it.
QUOTE
Yet each man kills the thing he loves,
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word.
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!
-Oscar Wilde
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word.
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!
#9
cynic
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 02:33 PM
teddydouglas, on 15 March 2010 - 03:31 PM, said:
Also, is there no way to agree to organ donation but tell them to wait until you are really dead?
The organs are then dead as well. Although I think the cornea might still be viable.
...a Beis Yaakov education is like fabric softener for the brain. -Grend123
How much money did your gadol get from EJF/Tom Kaplan?
"On a letter that my rabbis are signed on to, I also sign." R' Chaim Kanievsky
How much money did your gadol get from EJF/Tom Kaplan?
"On a letter that my rabbis are signed on to, I also sign." R' Chaim Kanievsky
#10
cynic
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 02:40 PM
Here is an interesting read:
http://koltorah.org/...nsplants_1.html
Except that a donation only occurs when there is a match. Therefore, for a Jew to accept a donation would mean that he is OK with the killing of the donor since otherwise the donor would not be donating his organ.
http://koltorah.org/...nsplants_1.html
Snag, on 15 March 2010 - 02:37 PM, said:
their moralistic argument is based on faulty data - the primary orthodox objection to organ donation (afaik) is that halacha and secular law diverge on what is considered "death", thus standard organ donation according to many poskim involves murder. therefore, one's objection to allowing oneself to be murdered should not logically preclude one benefiting from another who has no such qualms.
Except that a donation only occurs when there is a match. Therefore, for a Jew to accept a donation would mean that he is OK with the killing of the donor since otherwise the donor would not be donating his organ.
...a Beis Yaakov education is like fabric softener for the brain. -Grend123
How much money did your gadol get from EJF/Tom Kaplan?
"On a letter that my rabbis are signed on to, I also sign." R' Chaim Kanievsky
How much money did your gadol get from EJF/Tom Kaplan?
"On a letter that my rabbis are signed on to, I also sign." R' Chaim Kanievsky
#11
mosheshmeal
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 02:48 PM
What if you're just lending someone our organ?
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This really deserves the Fut The Wuck?! -TheDuncePolice
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Awesome!, on 31 January 2007 - 04:41 PM, said:
Glad thats sorted.
#12
Xi
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 06:18 PM
What other precedence rules are there?
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it's not that h has gotten boring. it's that we've become more jaded. bring the luster back in. polish your souls. learn to enjoy again. --int999 (ok, ok, I concede!)
this forum has been taken over by a bunch of punk kids who are pseudo-intellectual wannabe's with a chip on thier shoulder because they think they are frum, when they have no idea on what it means to be a True-Torah Jew. --adiel
Why do your own thinking when someone you like has done it for you already? --Moshi
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#13
Snag
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 06:51 PM
cynic, on 15 March 2010 - 03:25 PM, said:
Doesn't the Gemarah rule that brain death is the criteria for determining death? Also, AFAIK, RSZA ruled that brain death is death, until he was told to rule otherwise.
i don't know much about this topic, but i've heard that the brain death referred to by the poskim != brain stem death, which is the legal criterion.
teddydouglas, on 15 March 2010 - 03:31 PM, said:
Put it that way, and agreeing to accept an organ is basically requisitioning a murder.
Also, is there no way to agree to organ donation but tell them to wait until you are really dead?
Also, is there no way to agree to organ donation but tell them to wait until you are really dead?
not neccessarily - they will kill the person anyways, you are just allowing his death to benefit you.
i think the organs are then nonviable.
"the title "genius" is acquired by many, the same way an insect gets called a centipede; not because it has 100 legs, but because the masses can't be bothered to count past 14."
#14
cynic
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 08:47 PM
Snag, on 15 March 2010 - 07:51 PM, said:
i don't know much about this topic, but i've heard that the brain death referred to by the poskim != brain stem death, which is the legal criterion.
I spoke with a research doctor, and he confirmed that the feather thing is brain death, not cardiac death. Once you clear that, then we can discuss just what we call brain death. And what we generally call brain death is the absence of electrical impulses as measured via an EEG, I guess. It's not "being a vegetable" as YWN folks would say. Nobody comes out of brain death, it's not a coma.
...a Beis Yaakov education is like fabric softener for the brain. -Grend123
How much money did your gadol get from EJF/Tom Kaplan?
"On a letter that my rabbis are signed on to, I also sign." R' Chaim Kanievsky
How much money did your gadol get from EJF/Tom Kaplan?
"On a letter that my rabbis are signed on to, I also sign." R' Chaim Kanievsky
#16
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Posted 15 March 2010 - 09:13 PM
Sweet, on 15 March 2010 - 01:22 PM, said:
I would be even happier (for personal reasons) if there was an opt-out policy in America.
Of course there should be. America has one of the lower numbers of donors per inhabitants, and it's probably because people don't take the time out to see if it's something they'd like to do. If it's an opt-out policy, you can bet people might be more involved in deciding.
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#17 Guest_NehsukSehcut_*
Posted 16 March 2010 - 07:10 AM
Frequent blood and platelet donors, who save just as many if not more lives than organ donors, should be regarded as organ donor card holders for the purpose of this law. In fact, they have already saved lives whereas the card holders have only indicated their willingness to donate.
It is very possible that a card holder might die without being able to donate the organs (age, hopefully, but also malignant and other disqualifying illness, lack of proper recipient or problems that lead to organ rejection) whereas the blood and platelet donors have already donated and will continue doing so.
And leave it to the government of the secular state that occupies Eretz Yisroel to come up with anti-Torah laws. This, the civil union law, what else is next?
It is very possible that a card holder might die without being able to donate the organs (age, hopefully, but also malignant and other disqualifying illness, lack of proper recipient or problems that lead to organ rejection) whereas the blood and platelet donors have already donated and will continue doing so.
And leave it to the government of the secular state that occupies Eretz Yisroel to come up with anti-Torah laws. This, the civil union law, what else is next?
#18
Snag
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Posted 16 March 2010 - 09:52 AM
NehsukSehcut, on 16 March 2010 - 08:10 AM, said:
Frequent blood and platelet donors, who save just as many if not more lives than organ donors, should be regarded as organ donor card holders for the purpose of this law. In fact, they have already saved lives whereas the card holders have only indicated their willingness to donate.
It is very possible that a card holder might die without being able to donate the organs (age, hopefully, but also malignant and other disqualifying illness, lack of proper recipient or problems that lead to organ rejection) whereas the blood and platelet donors have already donated and will continue doing so.
It is very possible that a card holder might die without being able to donate the organs (age, hopefully, but also malignant and other disqualifying illness, lack of proper recipient or problems that lead to organ rejection) whereas the blood and platelet donors have already donated and will continue doing so.
i think this is an excellent point.
"the title "genius" is acquired by many, the same way an insect gets called a centipede; not because it has 100 legs, but because the masses can't be bothered to count past 14."
#19
politico
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Posted 16 March 2010 - 10:44 AM
Snag, on 16 March 2010 - 09:52 AM, said:
i think this is an excellent point.
not if the goal of the legislation is to incentivize organ donation.
"If circumstances allowed it, even the most humble visitor would be granted an interview, during which he would listen patiently to him and then analyze his arguments and, if necessary, destroy them completely."
#20
Snag
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Posted 16 March 2010 - 10:49 AM
politico, on 16 March 2010 - 11:44 AM, said:
not if the goal of the legislation is to incentivize organ donation.
but why is organ donation the only criterion which pushes someone up the list?
"the title "genius" is acquired by many, the same way an insect gets called a centipede; not because it has 100 legs, but because the masses can't be bothered to count past 14."
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